WARNING: The following interview contains major spoilers for Lucifer Season 5B, streaming now on Netflix.
Lucifer Season 5B delves deeper into the Celestials' chaotic family, bringing not just God to the dinner table, but also Lucifer's entire family of angels. Faced with God's impending resignation and his sudden desire to reconnect with his fallen angel of a son, Lucifer takes on his biggest challenge yet: stepping into the shoes of the man he detests the most.
In an interview with CBR, Lucifer's co-showrunner Joe Henderson discussed Luci's winding path to ruling the heavens and how his journey affected the ones he loves most on Earth.
CBR: Why was it important to make Amenadiel's son mortal? How is this going to affect his journey on Earth and his journey with mortality?
Joe Henderson: It's interesting. We had a big debate on what we wanted to do with Charlie. A big part of Amenadiel's arc for Season 5 is facing the legacy of his own father. Now that you've watched Season 5A and 5B, you see how much it's all part of this whole idea of fatherhood -- expecting your children to be one thing and discovering that they're another. And not even being disappointed by it, but actually being proud of it or just accepting your children for who they are, because you can't control what they're going to become.
That was a thing we really wanted to explore in Season 5. And with Amenadiel, it just felt like such a great example. In Season 1, he's God's favorite son. He's the rule follower. He's the ultimate Angel. And for him to have a child who appears to be human, it's such a great challenge for a character and a great testament to how strong his character is.
So, Chloe never technically confronts God about why she's a gift. There's one scene where she's about to and Lucifer pulls her away. Since we don't get to see that conversation, I was curious if there was a chance for God to say anything to Chloe about that, what would he have said? Or what would she have said?
It's funny, we had written versions of the scene where we get into it deeper. And one of the things we kept running into is, she sort of made her peace with it in the first half of Season 5 and realizing she isn't a gift. Her ability is. The fact that she is not affected by Lucifer's powers. That's [the gift]. And so, the more we talked about, the more we realized we were sort of retreading ground that we'd already tread because she made her peace with her place in it.
Season 5B is more about God being -- in her mind -- a bad father and exploring that and exploring the pressure he's put on everyone and all of those things.
Why, ultimately, did the writers decide to have Ella have a conversation with God without 100% knowing his identity? Was it to show that she has such faith that she doesn't need to know who he is? It seems like she might know or sense his identity in Season 5B, but she tosses the idea away as some wacky idea of hers.
That's a big part of it. Honestly, we knew we had to have a scene with Ella and God. But a big part of it, as you said, is that Ella has such rock-steady faith now, especially after her crisis of faith. And what she needed more than knowing that God exists, was hearing her own value and hearing the idea that the darkness makes the light shine brighter.
So to us, what was interesting is she's getting the exact right advice at the exact right time, but she doesn't realize she's getting it from the exact right person too. And that's a fun thing to play with because we also just like showing how special Ella is. Out of everyone, God saw her in need and decided to personally reach out. That was a really nice thing to be able to hit.
If in the future Ella does learn about Celestials, will we get to see how this affects her relationship with Azrael?
I'll not answer that, but I will say how fun was it to see Azrael again?
Ugh, I love her so much. I wanted to see more of her, but I get it. The Angel of Death is busy, but when she did arrive in 5B, it was so, so good.
I've got a lot of questions from people asking, "Is 'Boo Normal' [episode] cannon? Does it fit in?" And it's been fun, knowing that people will eventually see not only is it canon, but Azrael is going to have a small but very important moment. And we were so thrilled to have Charlyne Yi come back for it and close that loop. Because you see her and you're like, "Ah, oh, no, Lucifer! Figure out what this means!" Yeah, we loved working with her. We loved having her. So we were really, really happy that we were able to get her back for that season finale scene.
It seems like a big takeaway from Amenadiel spending so much time with his father and his son Charlie was learning the power of stepping back in parenting, which is the opposite of Linda's hands-on approach. How is Amenadiel's new approach to parenting going to affect their parental dynamic going forward?
Yeah, I really hope someone explores that in Season 6.
Okay, fair.
One of the things I did love exploring with all of that is Lucifer and Amenadiel realizing that their father was trying to give them a gift. He was trying to give them choice. So much of our show is about choice. And so much is about Lucifer feeling constantly like he doesn't have a choice and then ultimately realizing that all his dad has ever done is try to give it to him. That's what a lot of father-child relationships are, feeling like your dad and your mom are holding you back and not letting you be who you want to be when in reality they're trying their best. It's just hard to get out of your own way both as a parent and an adult. That was something we really wanted to explore and have Amenadiel and Linda exemplify in those two opposite ways.
So, Maze grows a soul, which was amazing! But she's still on this campaign to possibly be the Queen of Hell. How is this new soul going to affect that journey, especially now that she can feel things like guilt sorrow, and regret?
Sounds like a cool story.
Sounds like a cool story to see what happens with that!
[Laughs] Oh man, it sounds like if someone introduced that idea, they might realize that extra season would be really helpful to explore it.
Well, at least we'll get to see her explore it with Eve!
Ugh, how great are they together?
What was your favorite moment of having Eve and Maze back together again?
The shorthand. They have such a wonderful loving banter. And it's funny because they are complete opposites. And what I love about their relationship is that Eve loves the weirdest parts of Maze. And Maze loves the most innocent parts of Eve, to a certain extent. And they love what is opposite about each other, but in a way that makes them two parts of a whole. And that's fun to play with on the page. It's fun to see how well Inbar Lavi and Lesley-Ann Brandt bring that to life. They just have such incredible chemistry. You're lucky enough when you introduce a character and they have chemistry with someone. In this case, Inbar having incredible chemistry with Tom Ellis' Lucifer, but when we realized that she did have the chemistry we thought and hoped she would with Lesley-Ann, we were like, "Okay, this is just an incredible toy to play with!" And they just sparkle on the screen.
It feels like there's a lot of physical distance between Chloe and Lucifer in the second half of Season 5. I assumed this was related to COVID restrictions while shooting?
[Shakes head]
No? None? Really?!
I'll tell you how much was shot during COVID. It was just parts of the finale. A lot of it was actually us wanting to tell emotional distance and show the fact that they were together, but they weren't together. Like the trick of it was there was this wall. Lucifer had created an emotional wall. And they're trying to be together. They're trying to overcome it, but they haven't. And so much of the challenge for them was, "Well, how do we be together if we can't get past this hump?" And trying to either fake it until they make it or find a way to get there. So that was us sort of physicalizing that and also frustrating the hell out of fans.
All I will say is, "Fans, next season. You'll be happy."
So, Lucifer finally becomes God. Going forward, how is the combination of him having his dad's former job and spending so much time with him going to change his view on his father? And what the role of God should do?
I think it's a great question because it's what Season 5 is all about. It's all about facing, "Who is my father? I fought so hard not to become my father. If I do become my father, how do I do it differently? Or do I repeat the same mistakes?" To me, this entire season is about that question and building towards a moment where [Lucifer] wants to become God but for the wrong reasons, continually, for the wrong reasons. And then he finally becomes God, accidentally, or incidentally, for the right reasons. He's not trying to become God at that moment. He's just trying to save the woman he loves. And that's interesting.
That all those moments are a call to action. There's a little phrase that goes, "You should want a leader who doesn't want to be a leader." A good leader is someone who doesn't want the power but can wield it. And so that'll become the question, as someone who has wanted the power but got it when he didn't want it. What's gonna be the push-pull for him as he faces that?
Speaking of power, and found power, Lee Garner returns and is in Heaven.
How great is that?
So great! It was just a full-circle moment for his character. Is this what God meant when he said that Hell doesn't need a warden anymore? Because people realize that they can now self-actualize? And part two of this question, how will this truth affect Dan's journey?
Great questions.
[Laughs] Okay!
All I will say is that you're asking the right questions. By the way, Lee Garner is named after Shadecraft's Lee Garbett. We just couldn't clear his name. They wouldn't let us use it.
The one thing I want to say too is Jeremiah Birkett, who plays Lee, that's a guy who was in a scene at the top of Season 2, and was so good that we just kept bringing him back to the point where we finally had a premiere episode be about him. And then the pivotal moment, at the end [of Season 5B], he's there. And it's just, there's something wonderful about when you're working in TV, and you find a talent like that. And you're able to show them off to the world. And he's doing great now and he's in Them.
So, Trixie... That was really heartbreaking. Watching generational trauma is hard enough, but then realizing she's going to experience the same loss her mother experienced?! Will the Celestials help her at all in navigating this journey? Or will this be a more grounded journey for Trixie and Chloe?
That's a good question. All I will say is we will continue that journey. And this is not the last we've seen of dealing with the repercussions of Detective Dan Espinoza's death, which is not something I've been allowed to say out loud until now! Phew! That's nice. Oh man, by the way, Episode 12, "Daniel Espinoza: Naked and Afraid"? [laughs]
Oh, when I saw that episode, I was convinced that Dan was already dead and was stuck in a hell loop. But he wasn't and it was amazing!
It was so good. Oh, god, that was a fun one. That might be one of the fastest episodes we've ever broken. Mike Costa who wrote it -- we all love Dan, Dan's like one of our favorite characters, because you just torture him continuously -- but Mike Costa, particularly, loves torturing Dan. And so when the idea of this episode came up, "He was like, I got this!" And we just broke it so fast. Like we just started throwing [ideas]. Here's a random crazy thing! Now let's add Russians! Now let's do this and add an improv troupe!
It seems like it was really important to have a sacrifice for Chloe to feel guilty about, which plays in through the end. Why was it so important for Dan to be the one to be sacrificed?
Here's what I'll say. That wasn't the main reason he died.
Can you say what reason it was?
One, we wanted Chloe to feel guilt, and to feel like by stepping away someone had filled the void and taken her spot. Two, we wanted Lucifer to feel anger and pain. For all of his two steps forward, we wanted him to take a step back and misinterpret and feel lost and feel the sense that the rules were wrong. That things aren't working. If someone like Dan Espinosa goes to hell, then then the world is broken, and give him an extra sort of sense of, "Okay, well, if I'm God, how do I fix that?" What do I do to sort of tease that mystery of what could come once he actually could take that seat? And that was really important to us because being God isn't easy. Figuring out how to make these things work isn't easy. And, also, life isn't easy.
We meet so many siblings in Season 5B! What sibling relationship were you most excited to explore in the writers' room?
I mean, the easy answer is the least fun one, which was the family dinner. It was fun to have Amenadiel and Michael and Lucifer at dinner together. Initially, a lot of the fans will be very angry when they realized Chloe isn't there because I think a lot of them are hoping she is. Chloe was there in an earlier version, but it just kept distracting us. We realized that Lucifer had so much that he was hiding and keeping away that it wasn't time for her to be there yet.
On top of that, Linda wasn't there in the beginning. Adding Linda really brought it together. At the very beginning, I was insistent that Chloe be at the dinner. A week later, I was like, "Oh god, what was I thinking?" And that's part of having a great room of writers who are willing to argue and go, "I get that you feel very strongly about this, but here are the reasons why it would be more interesting if someone like Linda were there. One thing I love about Linda is she's us. She's just like, "What the fuck is happening?"
Everything tastes like chicken!
[Laughs] Exactly. That's one of the fastest scenes I've ever written. I wrote that scene on a plane ride. Actually, I almost wrote the entire episode on the plane ride. I've never had an episode of television come so cleanly to me. And that scene is 12 pages long and 11 minutes long. All the dynamics were there. You're so lucky when you're working on a show, and you can get to an episode where you've built up all of these conflict points. And then you have a scene where you just get to poke at them and expound them and have them grow. That was is one of the most fulfilling scenes I've ever written.
I also loved having Remiel back to explore the relationship between her, Amenadiel and Lucifer. Gabriel was fun too because you get that wise alec sister. We could spend an episode at a BBQ and I'll be a happy guy.
Well, can you say if in the future Lucifer will be having more family get-togethers?
[Shakes head] By the way, I'm mad at you for not asking me about my cameo yet.
What?! When?
It's hurtful, it really hurts.
Wait, did you die? Are you in the Dan episode?
I'm in the finale. Picture this beard gone, then picture an undead demon running towards an angel and getting his head cut off and flying across camera. That's me. I do my own stunts, people. It's funny, I shaved my face for it because you save money if you don't have to digitally erase a beard.
You also probably don't end up looking bad like the CGI done to Superman's mustache in 2017's The Justice League!
[Laughs] Exactly. We wanted to behead a demon. And they're like, "It costs a certain amount of money for a certain amount of hair." And then they were like, "If someone was bald, it would be cheaper... Joe, would you shave your beard?" And I was like, "I will shave my beard." The actor that played Jophiel was awesome and kind and very patient with my stunt work. I had to fall to the ground, 'cause my head was cut off. I was in pain for three days!
Lucifer stars Tom Ellis as Lucifer Morningstar, Lauren German as Det. Chloe Decker, D.B. Woodside as Amenadiel, Rachael Harris as Dr. Linda Martin, Kevin Alejandro as Det. Dan Espinoza, Lesley-Ann Brandt as Mazikeen Smith and Aimee Garcia as Ella Lopez. All five seasons are currently streaming on Netflix.
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